Gardens of Wisdom

[usmanusman]

Peace be upon you all,

can some one please interprete Quran 3 verse 81 for me? According to my understanding it refers to the comming of a messenger after prophet Muhammad.
i also know that the Quran emphasises that for every people there is a messenger, for every people there is a guide.

Your responses will be appreciated.

Usman Usman
Submitter to God Alone.

[Idris]

can some one please interprete Quran 3 verse 81 for me? According to my understanding it refers to the comming of a messenger after prophet Muhammad.

Peace be with you usmanusman.

This is the verse in question:
وَ إِذْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ ميثاقَ النّبِيِّينَ لَما آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتابٍ وَ حِكْمَةٍ ثُمّ جاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِما مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنّ بِهِ وَ لَتَنْصُرُنّهُ قالَ ءَ أَقْرَرْتُمْ وَ أَخَذْتُمْ عَلى ذلِكُمْ إِصْري قالُوا أَقْرَرْنا قالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَ أَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشّاهِدينَ

Please let the readers know your understanding of the verse and how it refers to a messenger to come after prophet Muhammad. It will put them in better position to understand the discussion. Let them know also that a messenger is different from a prophet.

i also know that the Quran emphasises that for every people there is a messenger, for every people there is a guide.

I will like you to elaborate what you understand by the word 'people' in this respect. Is it a nation, generation, dwellers of a town or who? I just want to know your understanding.

Peace and blessings of Allah be with you.

[usmanusman]

peace be upon you all,

Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall translated 3:81 as follows:

" When Allah made (His) covenant with the Prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear witness. I will be a witness with you. "

We also learn from Sura 33 that Muhammad was one of the prophets who made that solemn covenant with God

"And when we exacted a covenant from the Prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary, We took from them a solemn covenant. "(33:7) (according to Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall)


DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PROPHET AND MESSENGER

Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture. According to the Quran, every "Nabi" is a "Rasoul," but not every "Rasoul" is a "Nabi."

Not every messenger was given a new scripture. It is not logical that God will give a scripture to a prophet, then ask him to keep it exclusively for himself, as stated by some Muslim "scholars" (2:42, 146, 159). Those who are not sufficiently familiar with the Quran tend to think that Aaron was a "Nabi," as stated in 19:53, who did not receive a scripture. However, the Quran clearly states that the Torah was given specifically "to both Moses and Aaron" (21:48, 37:117).

We learn from the Quran, 33:40, that Muhammad was the last prophet (Nabi), but not the last messenger (Rasoul):

"Muhammad was not the father of any of your men; he was a messenger (Rasoul) of God and the last prophet (Nabi)." [ 33:40 ]

Those who are not sufficiently familiar with the Quran tend to think that Aaron was a "Nabi" as stated in 19:53, who did not receive a scripture. This claim can only be made by those who do not believe the Quran, since God ascertains in 2:213 that all the prophets were sent with the Scripture. Moreover, the Quran clearly states that the Torah was given specifically "to both Moses and Aaron" (21:48, 37:117).

In other terms ALL THE PROPHETS are MESSENGERS, but NOT ALL the MESSENGERS are PROPHETS.

[Idris]

" When Allah made (His) covenant with the Prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear witness. I will be a witness with you. "

We also learn from Sura 33 that Muhammad was one of the prophets who made that solemn covenant with God

"And when we exacted a covenant from the Prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary, We took from them a solemn covenant. "(33:7) (according to Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall)

Rashad Khalifa concluded (from the two verses above) that since Muhammad was among the prophets that took covenant with Allah in the first verse, Muhammad is therefore not the messenger mentioned in that first verse but He (Rashad Khalifa)

The key word in this discussion is COVENANT/Agreement/Pledge

In the Qur’an, Allah made it very clear that He took covenant from every single human being including the prophets and the messengers.

Allah further talked about the various covenants He took with the children of Israel.

If Allah, in the second verse (Q33:7), did not mention a particular covenant, where are we to draw the conclusion that the second covenant is the same covenant referred to in the first verse (Q3:81)?

How did the prophets believe and help Rashad Khalifa and how did Rashad confirm their scriptures?

I will be waiting for your response.

[Idris]

In the Qur'an al-Imran verse 81, Allah says:
وَ إِذْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ ميثاقَ النّبِيِّينَ لَما آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتابٍ وَ حِكْمَةٍ ثُمّ جاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِما مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنّ بِهِ وَ لَتَنْصُرُنّهُ قالَ ءَ أَقْرَرْتُمْ وَ أَخَذْتُمْ عَلى ذلِكُمْ إِصْري قالُوا أَقْرَرْنا قالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَ أَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشّاهِدينَ
And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then a messenger comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him (it), and you must aid him (it). He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

The verse is made up of three parts:
In the first part, Allah talked about reaching a pact with the prophets.
وَ إِذْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ ميثاقَ النّبِيِّينَ
And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets

In the second part, Allah mentioned what He did to the prophets that warranted the pact.
لَما آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتابٍ وَ حِكْمَةٍ ثُمّ جاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِما مَعَكُمْ
Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then a messenger came to you confirming that which was with you.

In the third part, Allah mentioned the content of the pact which was to be the pledge of the prophets.
لَتُؤْمِنُنّ بِهِ وَ لَتَنْصُرُنّهُ قالَ ءَ أَقْرَرْتُمْ وَ أَخَذْتُمْ عَلى ذلِكُمْ إِصْري قالُوا أَقْرَرْنا قالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَ أَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشّاهِدينَ

[NOTE THIS!!!]
You will believe and help (propagate) it (that which is given to you containing Kitab and Hikmah and confirmed by a messenger that came afterwards). He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

The mentioning of the messenger in the second part did not change the theme of the statement which remains the message itself rather it buttressed it. The messenger rounded up the prophethood and confirmed all the messages as a single message.

Therefore, the pact was not to help the messenger (as wrongly interpreted by many Muslims) but to believe and help the message.

This interpretation becomes obvious when we look at the two preceding verses which were said on the basis of this verse in discussion. Allah says in the preceding two verses:
ما كانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَنْ يُؤْتِيَهُ اللّهُ الْكِتابَ وَ الْحُكْمَ وَ النّبُوّةَ ثُمّ يَقُولَ لِلنّاسِ كُونُوا عِبادًا لي مِنْ دُونِ اللّهِ وَ لكِنْ كُونُوا رَبّانِيِّينَ بِما كُنْتُمْ تُعَلِّمُونَ الْكِتابَ وَ بِما كُنْتُمْ تَدْرُسُونَ
وَ لا يَأْمُرَكُمْ أَنْ تَتّخِذُوا الْمَلائِكَةَ وَ النّبِيِّينَ أَرْبابًا أَ يَأْمُرُكُمْ بِالْكُفْرِ بَعْدَ إِذْ أَنْتُمْ مُسْلِمُونَ
It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but (what he said was): Be ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof.
And neither would he enjoin you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords; what! would he enjoin you with unbelief after you are Muslims?

And concerning the nature of the covenant, it is like:
وَ إِذْ أَخَذَ رَبّكَ مِنْ بَني آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرّيّتَهُمْ وَ أَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلى أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَ لَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قالُوا بَلى شَهِدْنا أَنْ تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيامَةِ إِنّا كُنّا عَنْ هذا غافِلينَ
And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection: Surely we were heedless of this.

This covenant is engrained in us as al-Aql –the covenant of the prophets was of this nature.

Muhammad also pertook in the covenant even though he was the messenger that rounded up the prophethood. It is like in Zumar (Q39:33)
وَ الّذي جاءَ بِالصِّدْقِ وَ صَدّقَ بِهِ أُولئِكَ هُمُ الْمُتّقُونَ
And the person that brought the message and believed in it - Such are the dutiful.

Concerning Allah referring to Kitab and Hikmah with به and not بهما, there is a semblance in Q2:231
اذْكُرُوا نِعْمَتَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَ ما أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ مِنَ الْكِتابِ وَ الْحِكْمَةِ يَعِظُكُمْ بِهِ
Kitab and Hikmah are the two aspects of a single message.

[usmanusman]

Peace be upon you all,

Idris wrote the following

Rashad Khalifa concluded (from the two verses above) that since Muhammad was among the prophets that took covenant with Allah in the first verse, Muhammad is therefore not the messenger mentioned in that first verse but He (Rashad Khalifa)

I did not mention Rashad Khalifa as the messenger so i will not discuss that here, may be in future.

Idris wrote
"In the Qur’an, Allah made it very clear that He took covenant from every single human being including the prophets and the messengers.

Allah further talked about the various covenants He took with the children of Israel."

Reply
Thats correct and True.

Idris wrote

"If Allah, in the second verse (Q33:7), did not mention a particular covenant, where are we to draw the conclusion that the second covenant is the same covenant referred to in the first verse (Q3:81)?"

Reply
Allah mentioned a particular covenant

Allah mentioned in both verses that He took a covenant with the PROPHETS and even named then in 33, 7. So it is the covenant with the prophets.

When God made a covenant withh the children of Isreal he specified it. When He made a covenant with human beings in general He specified it. There is no confusion here as it is clear He took a covenant with the Prophets in both verses in question and not the children of Isreal or mankind in general participating.

Idris wrote

"How did the prophets believe and help Rashad Khalifa and how did Rashad confirm their scriptures?"

Reply

I did not Mention Rashad Khalifa.

Peace.

[Idris]

Peace be with you usmanusman.

Allah mentioned in both verses that He took a covenant with the PROPHETS and even named then in 33, 7. So it is the covenant with the prophets.

I agree with you that Allah took a covenant with the prophets in the two verses but while Allah specified the content of the covenant in Q3:81, He did not in Q33:7. Look into the verse as quoted by you again:
And when we exacted a covenant from the Prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary, We took from them a solemn covenant. "(33:7) (according to Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall)

As you can see above Allah did not specify what was the agreement/pledge/covenant/pact.

Allah took several covenants with the children of Israel. In some verses he specified the particular covenant while in others He did not.

[usmanusman]

Peace,

Idris wrote

"I agree with you that Allah took a covenant with the prophets in the two verses but while Allah specified the content of the covenant in Q3:81, He did not in Q33:7. Look into the verse as quoted by you again:
And when we exacted a covenant from the Prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary, We took from them a solemn covenant. "(33:7) (according to Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall)

As you can see above Allah did not specify what was the agreement/pledge/covenant/pact.

Allah took several covenants with the children of Israel. In some verses he specified the particular covenant while in others He did not.
Peace be with you usmanusman.

Allah mentioned in both verses that He took a covenant with the PROPHETS and even named then in 33, 7. So it is the covenant with the prophets.

I agree with you that Allah took a covenant with the prophets in the two verses but while Allah specified the content of the covenant in Q3:81, He did not in Q33:7. Look into the verse as quoted by you again:
And when we exacted a covenant from the Prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary, We took from them a solemn covenant. "(33:7) (according to Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall)

As you can see above Allah did not specify what was the agreement/pledge/covenant/pact.

Allah took several covenants with the children of Israel. In some verses he specified the particular covenant while in others He did not."

Reply:

If God did not specify the type of covenant in 33:7 it is because it is a reference to 3:81. If it were otherwise God in His Infinite Mercy would have told us through another verse.

What other covenant can be Solemn apart from a covenant that other prophets should believe and help the messenger who will confirm the existing scriptures as indicated in 3:81?


Peace.

[Idris]

Dear usmanusman! What do you think is the primary or basic duty of a prophet? Why is he a prophet in the first place?

How are the prophets expected to believe and help a messenger that will come after they are long dead and gone?

[usmanusman]

Peace,

Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Quran, He mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom. The association of prophethood and scripture cannot be missed except by those blocked by God from seeing the truth. The following are some examples:
"Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn." 3:79
"Those were the ones to whom we have given the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood. If these people disbelieve, we will substitute others in their place, and the new people will not be disbelievers." 6:89
"We granted him Isaac and Jacob, we assigned to his descendants prophethood and the scriptures, we endowed him with his due recompense in this life, and in the Hereafter he will surely be with the righteous." 29:27
"We have given the Children of Israel the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood, and provided them with good provisions; we bestowed upon them more blessings than any other people." 45:16
"We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants prophethood and the scripture. Some of them were guided, while many were wicked." 57:26
MESSENGER PROPHET and not, PROPHET MESSENGER:
The first example for messenger prophet comes from 7:157, and 7:158 where God described the Prophet Muhammed as, "the messenger the prophet" and not as "the prophet the messenger," not a coincidence, [God does not have coincidences]. The reason is that not every messenger is a prophet and therefore the word PROPHET is used to further define and clarify the description of that messenger.
"follow the messenger, the prophet (gentile prophet) (Muhammed), whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel . . . " 7:157
"..........therefore you shall believe in God and His messenger, the prophet (gentile prophet), who believes in God and His words. Follow him, that you may be guided." 7:158
MOSES, THE MESSENGER PROPHET:
In 19:51, Moses was described by God as a messenger prophet (Rasoulan Nabyya), and NOT as a prophet messenger (Nabyyan Rasoula).
ISMAIL, THE MESSENGER PROPHET
In 19:54, Ismail is described with the same words, 'Rasoulan Nabyyan'.
The reason is that, NOT every Rasoul (Messenger) is a Nabi (Prophet), BUT every Prophet (Nabi) is a Messenger (Rasoul), so God defined the word Rasoul by adding to it Nabyya. God does not make mistakes and He does not choose His words haphazard, it is meant to be in this order.
OTHER EXAMPLES are found in the Quran to clarify this description:
HUMAN BEING MESSENGER:
"Am I more than a human messenger (Basharan Rasoula)" 17:93
Notice, " a human messenger" and NOT "a messenger human (Rasoulan Bashara)."
The reason is that not every Bashar (human) is a Rasoul (messenger) while every Rasoul (messenger) from among us is a Bashar (human).
17:94, has the same expression again, human messenger (Basharan Rasoula), not (Rasoulan Bashara)
ANGEL MESSENGER:
" . . . we would have sent to them from the sky an angel messenger (Malakan Rasoula)" 17:95
Notice, "an angle messenger" and NOT "a messenger angel (Rasoulan Malaka). The reason is that not every angel is a messenger but every messenger FROM God's soldiers is an angel.
SAINT PROPHET:
In 19:41, God described Abraham as "a Siddiqan Nabyya (Saint Prophet)" and NOT as a Nabyyan Siddiqa, (Prophet Saint). The reason is that not every Siddiq (Saint ) is a prophet, while every prophet is a siddiq.
If God would say, Abraham was a Nabbyan Siddiqua (prophet saint), this would indicate that not every prophet is a saint while every saint is a prophet.
In 19:56, God described the prophet Idris the same way, as a Siddiquan Nabyya (Saint prophet).
NO WHERE in the whole Quran does God use these terms different. God never described a prophet as a prophet messenger ( Nabbyan Rasoula), or prophet saint (Nabyyan Siddiqua).
'MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET' :
Perhaps one of the strongest indications in the Quran that the words prophet and messenger do not have the same meaning, is found in the following verse:
"We did not send before you any MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. GOD then nullifies what the devil has done. GOD perfects His revelations. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise." 22:52
If the words prophet and messenger had the same meaning God would not be saying "MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET" ...... would He ? Had the two words had exactly the same meaning , then mentioning one of them would have been sufficient.

The Quran is clear that EVERY PROPHET (NABI) IS A MESSENGER (RASOUL) BUT NOT EVERY MESSENGER IS A PROPHET.
Now that we have the definition of Prophet (Nabi) and Messenger (Rasoul) by God Almighty Himself, the Teacher of the Quran, NO SCHOLAR's opinion can change that fact. We, however are FREE to side with God or side with the scholars. Generations before you did just that and were described by God in the Quran in 9:31:
"They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of God . . . "
This kind of idol-worship is leading only to one place, and it is not Heaven"




[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you." This kind of support is nothing but believing in and supporting the one and only one message delivered to humanity by all of God's prophets and messengers. It is not a kind of moral and physical support of the actual messenger prophesied in the verse. I hope this clarifies your conncern, God willing. Peace and God bless,


Usman Usman
Submitter to God alone

[Idris]

[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you." This kind of support is nothing but believing in and supporting the one and only one message delivered to humanity by all of God's prophets and messengers. It is not a kind of moral and physical support of the actual messenger prophesied in the verse. I hope this clarifies your conncern, God willing. Peace and God bless,

In the Qur'an al-Imran verse 81, Allah says:
وَ إِذْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ ميثاقَ النّبِيِّينَ لَما آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتابٍ وَ حِكْمَةٍ ثُمّ جاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِما مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنّ بِهِ وَ لَتَنْصُرُنّهُ قالَ ءَ أَقْرَرْتُمْ وَ أَخَذْتُمْ عَلى ذلِكُمْ إِصْري قالُوا أَقْرَرْنا قالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَ أَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشّاهِدينَ
And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then a messenger comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him (it), and you must aid him (it). He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

The verse is made up of three parts:
In the first part, Allah talked about reaching a pact with the prophets.
وَ إِذْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ ميثاقَ النّبِيِّينَ
And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets

In the second part, Allah mentioned what He did to the prophets that warranted the pact.
لَما آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتابٍ وَ حِكْمَةٍ ثُمّ جاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِما مَعَكُمْ
Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then a messenger came to you confirming that which was with you.

In the third part, Allah mentioned the content of the pact which was to be the pledge of the prophets.
لَتُؤْمِنُنّ بِهِ وَ لَتَنْصُرُنّهُ قالَ ءَ أَقْرَرْتُمْ وَ أَخَذْتُمْ عَلى ذلِكُمْ إِصْري قالُوا أَقْرَرْنا قالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَ أَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشّاهِدينَ

[NOTE THIS!!!]
You will believe and help (propagate) it (that which is given to you containing Kitab and Hikmah and confirmed by a messenger that came afterwards). He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

The mentioning of the messenger in the second part did not change the theme of the statement which remains the message itself rather it buttressed it. The messenger rounded up the prophethood and confirmed all the messages as a single message.

Therefore, the pact was not to help the messenger (as wrongly interpreted by many Muslims) but to believe and help the message.

This interpretation becomes obvious when we look at the two preceding verses which were said on the basis of this verse in discussion. Allah says in the preceding two verses:
ما كانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَنْ يُؤْتِيَهُ اللّهُ الْكِتابَ وَ الْحُكْمَ وَ النّبُوّةَ ثُمّ يَقُولَ لِلنّاسِ كُونُوا عِبادًا لي مِنْ دُونِ اللّهِ وَ لكِنْ كُونُوا رَبّانِيِّينَ بِما كُنْتُمْ تُعَلِّمُونَ الْكِتابَ وَ بِما كُنْتُمْ تَدْرُسُونَ
وَ لا يَأْمُرَكُمْ أَنْ تَتّخِذُوا الْمَلائِكَةَ وَ النّبِيِّينَ أَرْبابًا أَ يَأْمُرُكُمْ بِالْكُفْرِ بَعْدَ إِذْ أَنْتُمْ مُسْلِمُونَ
It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but (what he said was): Be ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof.
And neither would he enjoin you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords; what! would he enjoin you with unbelief after you are Muslims?

And concerning the nature of the covenant, it is like:
وَ إِذْ أَخَذَ رَبّكَ مِنْ بَني آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرّيّتَهُمْ وَ أَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلى أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَ لَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قالُوا بَلى شَهِدْنا أَنْ تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيامَةِ إِنّا كُنّا عَنْ هذا غافِلينَ
And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection: Surely we were heedless of this.

This covenant is engrained in us as al-Aql –the covenant of the prophets was of this nature.

Muhammad also pertook in the covenant even though he was the messenger that rounded up the prophethood. It is like in Zumar (Q39:33)
وَ الّذي جاءَ بِالصِّدْقِ وَ صَدّقَ بِهِ أُولئِكَ هُمُ الْمُتّقُونَ
And the person that brought the message and believed in it - Such are the dutiful.

Concerning Allah referring to Kitab and Hikmah with به and not بهما, there is a semblance in Q2:231
اذْكُرُوا نِعْمَتَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَ ما أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ مِنَ الْكِتابِ وَ الْحِكْمَةِ يَعِظُكُمْ بِهِ
Kitab and Hikmah are the two aspects of a single message.

After all the explanations about a Prophet and a Messenger, is it a correct statement to state that Muhammadd was the HUMAN BEING that rounded up prophethood?

If you say that the prophets were requested to believe and support the specific message brought by the mentioned messenger, the assumption is that the message (the messenger brought) is different from the message the prophets already believed in and supported (preached). What is this message and how were the prophets expected to believe and support it after they are dead and long gone??? Please respond to this question because I really want to know.

[Idris]

Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture. According to the Quran, every "Nabi" is a "Rasoul," but not every "Rasoul" is a "Nabi."

Not every messenger was given a new scripture. It is not logical that God will give a scripture to a prophet, then ask him to keep it exclusively for himself, as stated by some Muslim "scholars" (2:42, 146, 159). Those who are not sufficiently familiar with the Quran tend to think that Aaron was a "Nabi," as stated in 19:53, who did not receive a scripture. However, the Quran clearly states that the Torah was given specifically "to both Moses and Aaron" (21:48, 37:117).

*** The emphasis is mine ***

Dear brother, please explain the following verse to me in light of the above assertion.

PICKTHAL: Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers. (Q5:44)

If those prophets came with their scriptures, why were they judging by Torah and not their scriptures?

Then note that all prophets surrendered to Allah but not all people that surrendered to Allah are prophets. Is it like prophets who are messengers?

[zubairus]

Salam to brothers and sisters,

Just to observe that the ongoing discussion is highly revealing. I hope it will be conclusive.

Salam

[usmanusman]

Peace be upon you all,

The fact is that God took a covenant with the prophets and asked them if they would help the messenger to which they obliged. We are well aware that this support is not the physical support because the prophets lived on earth before the messenger who will confirm the existing scriptures.


This kind of support is nothing but believing in and supporting the one and only one message delivered to humanity by all of God's prophets and messengers. It is not a kind of moral and physical support of the actual messenger prophesied in the verse. In fact this support shows the enormity of the issue and it is referenced in the Quran for our consumption. God is merely informing us of what took place during the covenant so we may know.

If we read the verse without bias we will understand.
I hope this clarifies your conncern, God willing.

Again the messenger who will confirm the existing scriptures must present proof of his messengership and affirm the truthfulness of the book of God.

As for Q5:44, it is clear that the scriptures mentioned is the Torah. It reads:

Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers. (Q5:44)

From the verse we deduce that the prophets judged the jews by the Torah. It reads:
Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews

The second part of the verse tells us that the rabbis and priests not the prophets judged by such of Allah’s scriptures as they were bidden to observe.

Theses scriptures could be Torah, Zabur or Injil.
The second part reads:
and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses.

Usman Usman

Submitter to God alone

[Idris]

From the verse we deduce that the prophets judged the jews by the Torah. It reads:
Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews

According to you, a prophet is a messenger that is sent with a scripture - not all messengers are prophets in this sense.

According to you, Torah was specifically sent to Musa and Harun.

According to the verse above, some prophets were judging by Torah which was specifically given to Musa and Harun!

Were those prophets messengers (not given scriptures) or what happened that they were not judging by their scriptures?

The second part of the verse tells us that the rabbis and priests not the prophets judged by such of Allah’s scriptures as they were bidden to observe.

The rabbis and priests (like the prophets) were judging by the scripture and not scriptures. What was the difference between them and the prophets since they were all judging by a scripture given to someone else?

Theses scriptures could be Torah, Zabur or Injil.

It is a scripture and it is Torah.

YOU HAD SAID: "As for Q5:44, it is clear that the scriptures mentioned is the Torah."